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je suis charlie

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yeah, I'm not sure why Russia wouldn't set up a no fly zone in Eastern Ukraine. And probably same should be in Syria. I guess there are a lot of different interests even within particular countries. Basically the oligarchy is killing the populace, that is their intent and they're winning, doesn't matter the country :sparesomecutter: we's foked
 
reno cool
I dunno, large numbers of people taking up space lets the powers know that there's another variable they have to deal with if they continue making certain moves. That's not to say those powers won't be able to overcome and make a stronger attack on humanity. That's why it a struggle.
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Until something drastic like Wall St being unable to buy influence and power, this will always be the case. Sad but true.
 
Badnina
For me, the obvious answer is for all the countries who are "bombing" ISIS to set up a safe zone in Syria, protect it with a no-fly zone, provide a perimeter, provide housing, clothing, humanitarian aid, medical help, training, and allow them to remain in their home country. Help them to remove the threat to their country and lives. Any true refugee coming here will not assimilate to this culture. It isn't how they were raised. They will require years of government assistance and then be resentful of that assistance ( ie Tsarnaev brothers who came as political refugees). This country is already 20 trillion dollars in debt and cannot afford this additional expense. Help them retain their own country with their own culture and help provide aid until such a time they can stand on their own.
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If money is your primary concern, do you think sending troops to Syria to create and enforce a perimeter and safely moving all of the refugees into the middle of that perimeter while providing housing and food to them (there will not be free commerce between the perimeter and the outside world) will be cheaper than simply giving them a place here? We took 20,000 Muslim refugees from Kosovo in 1999, and there are nearly 7 million Muslim Americans. Why do you assume that Syrian refugees cannot be assimilated to American society?
 
MonkeyF0cker
If money is your primary concern, do you think sending troops to Syria to create and enforce a perimeter and safely moving all of the refugees into the middle of that perimeter while providing housing and food to them (there will not be free commerce between the perimeter and the outside world) will be cheaper than simply giving them a place here? We took 20,000 Muslim refugees from Kosovo in 1999, and there are nearly 7 million Muslim Americans. Why do you assume that Syrian refugees cannot be assimilated to American society?
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Don't forget the fact that I mentioned all the other countries that are currently engaged in the bombing of ISIS. That would make it a shared responsibility. Let me put the assimilation issue more plainly. Look at Europe. Most countries over there have areas that have become Muslim only places. Paris has a couple of suburbs that are that way. People who are non-Muslim are not welcomed including law enforcement. Saint-Denis is one of those areas. If those people were wanting to assimilate into the culture, areas such as these would not be. If this has become the norm in Europe, would it not make sense that the same pattern would take place over here?
 
Badnina
Don't forget the fact that I mentioned all the other countries that are currently engaged in the bombing of ISIS. That would make it a shared responsibility. Let me put the assimilation issue more plainly. Look at Europe. Most countries over there have areas that have become Muslim only places. Paris has a couple of suburbs that are that way. People who are non-Muslim are not welcomed including law enforcement. Saint-Denis is one of those areas. If those people were wanting to assimilate into the culture, areas such as these would not be. If this has become the norm in Europe, would it not make sense that the same pattern would take place over here?
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We're also not the only country taking in refugees. Food and shelter would need to be provided in either case. You're adding expenses by creating a perimeter in Syria. You're also inserting troops into a hostile environment. Which has a greater likelihood of resulting in American casualties? I'm going to go with the war zone.

You think law enforcement here would ever let that fly? Aren't you underestimating American law enforcement a bit? In any case, there's a simple flaw in that line of thought. You're assuming that people in a completely different culture given the same labels as the refugees will act identically under different conditions in our country. Nothing good happens by stereotyping groups of people.
 
IAG
Seriously though, I do struggle with the refugee debate. I understand MF's point. It reminds me of Blackstone's formulation (although not completely comparable.) If you are not familiar with Blackstone's formulation, read the Wiki article. Although I was, (familiar with it) I read the Wiki article to see if it could offer me any additional assistance in my thought process. it gives some quotes from various historical persons who give their take in context of different historical events. (John Adams vs. Dick Cheney.)

I know it is not an ideal comparison, but the underlying ideals seem to be somewhat related.

My knee-jerk reaction was to stop allowing them to come. The more I really think about it though, the more conflicted I am.

I guess if it were just me at risk, I would let them in. I am a Christian, a risk taker, have no children, and don't live in an urban area. If any of these variables were different, I might think differently of course. After all, few if any Syrian refugees are going to end up in the 605.

I'd be interested in the opinions of Casper, Blitty, and Boner. None of these guys have kids of course, but all living, or having lived in a targeted are they may have a different take despite political affiliation.

I also heard that the vetting process can take 2-3 years for these people ? Is that correct? I assume it is a fairly involved process...would be interested to know what the cost per family averages.
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Yeah. That goes along with what I'm saying. I also think you're marginalizing an entire group of Muslims by not granting them refuge from an oppressive regime. We're on the same side of humanity by offering them refuge. If we send them back to that oppression, it validates groups like ISIS. It affirms their assertion of a religious war and likely turns even more moderates into extremists.

I don't understand how someone who would consider themselves Christian could ever turn away a refugee of war. If you're Christian, why are you so scared to die anyway? I'm atheist, don't believe in an afterlife, and I'm not that fearful. Help some people in life. Isn't that what the religion is supposed to be about?

I live in Las Vegas. I think the strip is probably a pretty high value target for terrorist groups. If you live in fear your whole life, you might as well be dead.
 
What's wrong with Christians putting other Christians first? It has nothing to do with being afraid to die. It has everything to do with protecting your own country, your own home and family. According to Eurostat and the UN, the number of refugees from Syria make up a small amount of the actual people coming in. Women and children are not the overwhelming majority of people coming in. We, as a country, have the right to put our people first. Actually, we are supposed to. And no, by creating a no-fly zone which can protect a perimeter, you don't have to have "Boots on the ground". Why don't other Middle Eastern countries take these refugees in? There has to be a reason.
 
MonkeyF0cker
Yeah. That goes along with what I'm saying. I also think you're marginalizing an entire group of Muslims by not granting them refuge from an oppressive regime. We're on the same side of humanity by offering them refuge. If we send them back to that oppression, it validates groups like ISIS. It affirms their assertion of a religious war and likely turns even more moderates into extremists.

I don't understand how someone who would consider themselves Christian could ever turn away a refugee of war. If you're Christian, why are you so scared to die anyway? I'm atheist, don't believe in an afterlife, and I'm not that fearful. Help some people in life. Isn't that what the religion is supposed to be about?

I live in Las Vegas. I think the strip is probably a pretty high value target for terrorist groups. If you live in fear your whole life, you might as well be dead.
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I thought about your second paragraph argument earlier, although it was in the context of an internal argument about whether Christian refugees should have priority over Muslims. On one side, there is the argument that they would pose less of a threat. However the other part of me says that the Christians will be ok in the end, so if anything they should be the ones left there. In any case, I see what you are saying there.

agree LV would be a prime target. I was there weeks after 9-11. The airline gave everyone free cocktails...to calm nerves I'd imagine. I'll never forget sitting at the Caesar's Pool and a bunch of military helicopters went flying over and everyone freaked out. I agree Vegas would be a prime target. I was a bit nervous that week and LV was like a second home to me in those days. Maybe nervous is not the right word....but the whole vibe there was weird to me.
 
Call me crazy but I would think a "prime target" would be next week. The Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Big American holiday. You have lots of people out, it's televised, it would be easy for anyone wearing a suicide vest to plant himself/herself all along the route for simultaneous detonation. Not that I am wanting to give anyone ideas but something like that just seems to make sense to me.


I'll be at home and will properly sleep through most of the parade, waking up for football.
 
MrX
Why? Are you not in favor of religious discrimination being illegal?
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It's more about me being pro freedom of speech, and until she actually denied someone services I don't know that her stupid statements should constitute a crime worthy of imprisonment...but you're probably right. I'm pmsing and extra confused the last few days. I'm too busy thinking about my refugee position to think this thru right now, but I'll get back to you. Life was easier when when I was a little more narrow minded. Seeing both sides to an issue is time consuming and giving me cognitive dissonance.
 
IAG
It's more about me being pro freedom of speech, and until she actually denied someone services I don't know that her stupid statements should constitute a crime worthy of imprisonment...but you're probably right.
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She's free to say that she hates Muslims, I don't think that would be illegal. It wouldn't be here.

But she DID deny service to Muslims. She's the owner, clearly speaking on behalf of her business that they won't provide service to Muslims. I don't know how she could more clearly deny service. And I'm pretty sure she won't be imprisoned over this, but there should be consequences.

IAG
...but you're probably right. I'm pmsing and extra confused the last few days. I'm too busy thinking about my refugee position to think this thru right now, but I'll get back to you. Life was easier when when I was a little more narrow minded. Seeing both sides to an issue is time consuming and giving me cognitive dissonance.
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Keep fightin' the good fight.
 
MrX
She's free to say that she hates Muslims, I don't think that would be illegal. It wouldn't be here.

But she DID deny service to Muslims. She's the owner, clearly speaking on behalf of her business that they won't provide service to Muslims. I don't know how she could more clearly deny service. And I'm pretty sure she won't be imprisoned over this, but there should be consequences.



Keep fightin' the good fight.
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You're right I say hold her down and make her read the food thread.

If I had more fight I would argue she had not yet denied services per se, but I'm weak, it's irrelevant, and I'll save any fight for our WWF game.

Btw where is the food thread? That's more my speed this week.
 
IAG
If I had more fight I would argue she had not yet denied services per se, but I'm weak, it's irrelevant, and I'll save any fight for our WWF game.
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Yeah, I don't think you'd end up winning that one. If you put up a sign outside your business saying "no blacks", you're discriminating. You don't have to beat them back at the doorway to prove it.

IAG
Btw where is the food thread? That's more my speed this week.
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http://gamelive.com/forum/showthread.php/20064-Anything-that-you-eat-today....journal-it-here!
 
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