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We can talk about songwriting

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I disagree with what seems to be the consensus here that songwriting can't be taught and a book about it is a joke. It depends on what you want to write. Some - perhaps most - very successful music is very formulaic and can definitely be discussed in an organized format.

Now a lot of time, that's going to be music that sucks by my tastes. But it makes money. It just depends what you want. Look how many crappy pop mega-hits are just strings of idiotic platitudes and cliches. Even moreso, look how many country music mega-hits are that. Cliches string together with alliteration. Remember to condescend to women. Just to be safe, empower everyone and his uncle. Can't go wrong.

You do need an idea. Inspiration is part of it. But, as I say, it depends what you are shooting for. In the 90's I had ~15 songs published around North America - and they all sucked. I would be embarrassed to play any of them for you. But I was formula writing. I was trying to construct a country hit. And it got me closer than most people ever get.

Nowadays I don't work that way at all. I just write what the fuck I feel like. It remains to be seen how far that will get me.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the topic right now.
 
Mudcat
I disagree with what seems to be the consensus here that songwriting can't be taught and a book about it is a joke. It depends on what you want to write. Some - perhaps most - very successful music is very formulaic and can definitely be discussed in an organized format.

Now a lot of time, that's going to be music that sucks by my tastes. But it makes money. It just depends what you want. Look how many crappy pop mega-hits are just strings of idiotic platitudes and cliches. Even moreso, look how many country music mega-hits are that. Cliches string together with alliteration. Remember to condescend to women. Just to be safe, empower everyone and his uncle. Can't go wrong.

You do need an idea. Inspiration is part of it. But, as I say, it depends what you are shooting for. In the 90's I had ~15 songs published around North America - and they all sucked. I would be embarrassed to play any of them for you. But I was formula writing. I was trying to construct a country hit. And it got me closer than most people ever get.

Nowadays I don't work that way at all. I just write what the fuck I feel like. It remains to be seen how far that will get me.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the topic right now.
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That's pretty awesome that you got that far with it. Unfortunately all genres of music have pretty stereotypical lyrics. Very cutthroat and copycat. I couldn't write lyrics, maybe make the background music.
 
If I'm understanding Mudcat ' s post correctly, he's focusing on the lyrical aspect of songwriting.

It is my (strong) belief that vocal melodies are a far more important aspect than lyrics.


Show me a song with GREAT lyrics and an awful melody and I'll show you a song that no one cares about (Bands that never make it out of their garage and even their friends hate them for example)

Show me a song with shitty lyrics and a GREAT melody and I'll show you a song that some people care about (and quite a few people purchase). *"Like A Virgin by Madonna for example.

Show me a song with GREAT lyrics and a GREAT melody and I'll show you a classic song that (generally) stands the test of time (Stairway To Heaven for example)
 
Well with country music there are no end of songs that are all about the lyrics and the tune is pretty much what anybody feels like plugging in. I frequently wonder if there will be lawsuits because the melodies/instrumentation are recycled so closely. Just plain, safe, taking-no-chances backing.

The lyrics are pretty crappy and recycled too - but they are star of the show. Come up with a good alliteration or some silly play on words and you are on your way to a country hit.

I like doing what she likes. (repeating the word like while being condescending. Country gold.)

Man, I feel like a woman. (See? She said both man and woman - which are opposites- in the same line. Cleverness. Amazeballs.)

I'm gonna getcha good (empowered woman and alliteration. Top of the charts)



I have a cynical view but it's true. I wrote the crap and people thought it was great. But that's country. And of course it's not black and white. There are some genuinely clever country lyrics and some damn catchy tunes too.

But the lyrical formulas come back over and over. When I was writing country music, I treated it like a code-cracking exercise. And as much as I can't stand Shania Twain, if I get a call tomorrow saying she is picking up one of my cliche-riddled old songs for a new CD, I will go and blow her where she stands.
 
There are many great tunes that primarily feature great vocal melodies. Certainly with more poppish and disco type of stuff.

But many of your greater rock n roll songs tell the listener what a great melody is. They don't stand out on 1st listen lets say. We were talking about ac/dc earlier. I think they would be a great example of the latter.
 
I guess what I was getting at earlier is I don't believe there is one specific way to write a good song.

I think the way each person arrives at is it different, so my opinion is that it would make it difficult for a book to get you there.

I believe in the Paul Simon stream of consciousness method. And although I didn't know that was how I was writing until I heard him explain it in an interview I had been writing that way for years. I'd estimate I have well over 1,000 completed songs. 99% of them are crap but when you write a good one there isn't a better feeling in the world.
 
It just bored us and we tried twice, dunno what else to say. I will say that when that guy whacked off on the girl that shit was funny. Funny to see it in non porn. What episode was that? Wasn't that a finale?

Maybe we'll try a random episode, maybe episode 1 just isn't for us.

Fok Ulysses.
 
There's an old man outside my window and he's standing in the rain
I don't ask him anything but he keeps nodding
I avoid that window when I can but he will not leave
It's just like the first girl I fucked
She's waiting for something
But we are both still and alone
In the car
In the rain
I don't ask her anything
But she keeps nodding
Like the man that isn't there
Like the car I never owned
Like the girl I never fucked
But the rain the rain the rain is there and it always will be
 
I hate to say it, but John Bon Jovi is probably one of the most successful 'formula' type writers of our generation. If you look at his massive list of hits, it almost cannot be denied.

Wanted Dead or Alive; It's My Life etc.
 
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