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Coronavirus

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Boner_18
You realize these people currently have no choice. The choice you reference is between current status quo and work + risk. How can option A or option B be worse than just option A. No logic here.
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reno cool
Yeah, I think everybody understands this. But people can make their own decisions based on their situation.
The highlighted part I find interesting. Kinda a feel like the people who aren't effected by the shutdowns want them to continue. They want the advantage over others. So it's better that those that really need to work and need to do things, don't have the choice to do so, because it gives them an advantage over the cowardly types. :thinking: Yeah, seems like that's where we're at
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This is bothering me a lot, too.

I want people that WANT to work and are ABLE to work to be able to return to work. And I want people that WANT to go out and use services to be able to.

I personally am just worried about the power corporations have in this scenario. IF we had some legitimate system to provide food and shelter to people who need to continue to quarantine and this was just a matter of letting those that can work get back to work, that'd be great. But again, I'm not making up some fantasy here... if a company reopens its going to expect people to come to work. Amazon got rid of people who wanted to quarantine.

Things reopening before coronavirus is taken care of will lead to people who need to or want to quarantine losing their jobs. OR risking their lives/lives of loved ones to do so because not being able to pay the bills is scarier. These are facts that we should be sympathetic to. As we should be sympathetic to people currently trapped at home with no jobs despite being able to work. This is infinitely complicated and every decision has major domino effects.
 
MrMonkey
Great post Davey! Yes it's a numbers game and just say right now "people" who want to survive will rather go back to work doing it than survive living in fear of long-lasting poverty! Rolling the dice I guess but from my personal "word on the street" poll, it favors going back to work! Davey like you stated, it's DESPERATION!

And let's talk numbers! Been hearing lots of raw number totals but not much % talk! Davey, you're guess on the % total that dies from it? Hear some high numbers out there meaning 2-3%! I think most people seriously doubt that and for argument sake say .05 die, which I think is still too high! Say 200M Americans get the virus! That's staggering but swine affected 60M!

So gives us 1M Americans dying, that BAD! Or 300M get it and then 1.5M. Thing is though people who need to work will think 1 out of every 200 die and I have to take that chance! And like you stated, it's not an EASY decision.
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Yeah, the numbers here are mind-blowing.

Death rate for sure isn't in that 2-3% range, I agree. But it is definitely more deadly and spreads far faster than the flu. Certainly a more efficient killer of the weakened than the flu.

And again I still wonder about the effect it spreading rapidly would have on hospitals, on people with other diseases (pnemonia, tuberculosis), smokers, etc etc. I personally think you'd see a lot more than 1 million deaths that covid was responsible for if left to its own devices, but this again is just a guess.

On the flip side, leaving things closed crushing the economy will have long term effects, mental health issues, people not getting routine treatments they need. It isn't like indefinite quarantine is a clear or exciting answer.

I don't know. One thing we can all agree on, it fucking sucks.
 
I'm pretty skeptical of the numbers. Sounds like they are attributing cause of death to c19 for all positive cases. And this why death #s may never go down, regardless of the true death rate. Since c19 seems to almost always act as a contributing factor to other ailments, it becomes a question of judgement. And I'm pretty sure in this environment judgement is to attribute as much as possible to c19
 
Matty
Are you still (usually) working MrM?
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Yes, food distributor! Within 6 ft of people often and enough of over 60 ones! Was quarantined for 2 weeks with 5-6 employees that ended Monday. It is what it is and honestly not preoccupied at all about catching it! Maybe naive but just feeling if so will be mild or not serious enough to be fatal! What I think about more is maybe being asymptomatic and infecting someone who possibly could die from it! Thing is that person though is coming to my area and not vice versa!
 
but I'm ok with following the white house guidelines and starting to open up after 14 days of cases going down.

I think we should be a bit more careful and nuanced in high density places and in places that have those big meat packing plants in Iowa, South Dakota, Nebraska ect.

here's where we stand on the 14 days of decreasing cases

StateDays of Decreasing Cases
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Last Updated: 04/25/20 18:47:09 CT
 
I'm curious as to how some businesses are faring during the pandemic. How many will ask for some sort of financial assistance from the government?

How do you feel about companies that use corporate tax shelters to avoid paying into the exact system they're asking to bail them out?

"Capitalism and profit for stakeholders when times are good but socialism paid by taxpayers to private companies when times are bad"
 
MrMonkey
Simple solution ..... quarantine everyone over 65 years old ..... the rest go back to work, if they so chose! Lessens the government's financial burden and the stock market hits 30K sooner than later!
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And personally I would say "strongly suggest" to the over 65. Some old people would rather take their chances, because a year of isolation can be very detrimental to them. They would be giving up a large part of the time they have left. So I believe they should be free to asses their own risks too.
It would be helpful if the "experts" instead of harping on the same tired "distancing" guidelines, would work on providing some assessments on a timeline, so that people can better weigh risk vs benefit for themselves.
 
MrMonkey
Simple solution ..... quarantine everyone over 65 years old ..... the rest go back to work, if they so chose! Lessens the government's financial burden and the stock market hits 30K sooner than later!
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I already went over a lot of the potential issues with this in the earlier post I made. Also, from an article on the topic (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...it-wont-work-just-isolate-elderly-vulnerable/)... what do you do about the millions of multi-generational families?

Like I've said, I agree that this fucking sucks and isn't sustainable. But it's also extremely ruthless to open everything up and let this thing start spreading like wildfire among the young population... I think we'd be putting a whole lot of lives in serious danger, and not just the ones that "choose" to go back to work.

And on the topic of "choice", again, desperation may not allow that choice to be made. Someone young and healthy choosing to go back to work or to partake in services available is awesome. Someone who is immunocompromised or who cares for someone that is being forced to "choose" between paying the bills or not won't have a choice at all. This includes the millions of elderly folks still in the workplace and millions of people who live with their elderly parents because they can't afford their own place.

Not saying them currently rotting away at home is a great alternative, just again that there is no "simple solution".

Just spitballing here (not acting like I've "solved" it or that this is without flaws), but I'd say a legitimate solution looks something like:

- Monthly Universal Basic Income for everyone. This would need to be figured out comprehensively, can't just keep printing money... make cuts to other areas of govt. Scale the amount based on income, where you live, etc etc. Just make sure that people have enough $ to keep the lights on, have a roof over their head, and food on the table.

- Require banks to put a temporary freeze on interest on credit cards. Perhaps have mortgage payments frozen for 3-6 months and added to the END of the current term, so that the money owed is still paid but for now people with no income can get a break. Again, this would be extremely complicated to figure out and enforce, but just some kind of system that works with people so they can live on the UBI they are given above.

- Now, with those two steps in place, people can choose to safely quarantine for as long as they need to. Others that are able and willing to return to work or that want to risk using services that have reopened can do so freely*.

- *Freely with the caveat that if there is a major spike in new cases that causes local hospitals to be unable to provide care, shutdowns may occur again to mitigate this. To help lower the chances of this being necessary, good practices like wearing masks, keeping distance in lines, and regular thorough cleanings should be used whenever possible.

- These damage-control shutdowns come with some kind of criteria for re-opening, like "declining cases" Archie mentioned or hospital capacity being at a certain threshold or whatever.

In this scenario we give people the power of real choice, unless shutdowns absolutely can't be avoided, and in those instances we have clear guidelines on when we can reopen again.
 
You (including most old people) can choose not to get coronavirus. Do not touch your mouth, nose or eyes with unwashed hands. Fact.

Most multi generational families have someone in them that can comprehend hand washing. Fact.

The FDA and CDC have confirmed there is no risk from food or food packaging transmission. Fact.

The disease is minimally deadly and does not cause high hospitalization rates among those 50 and under. Fact.

2 or more choices is greater freedom than one of those choices being a mandate. Fact.

Some of the non essential workforce generating economic activity is more economic activity than none of the non essential workforce working. Fact.

Opinions without much factual support are in vouge these days. Even opinion pieces disguised as facts. But I thought it might serve us well to return to some of these things we know.

Be safe. Wash your hands.
 
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