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The only union worth a damn is the teachers union.

My opinion of unions was extremely unpopular back home.

Well teachers are the most underpaid people in this country. I will agree that the teachers union is fairly good...but all the rest absolute garbage.

I disagree. Unions not only helped create middle class America, but if you want proof of how they are still relevant, you need not look any further than professional athletes.

I would also say that the unions make professional sports worse. Some sports they have too much power in other sports they don't have enough power. It is an absolute mess.

Thanks to people like Ronald Reagan who forced his hand in the air traffic controllers strike. The resulting impotency of unions is one of the big reasons why the middle class is shrinking into poverty and the rich continue to get richer.

If the unions still had power, do you think they'd allow companies to send jobs overseas?

Now, you have "right to work" and "employment at will" states. It gives laborers absolutely no protection for abuses by employers if that person is in a position where they can't afford to lose their job. They have no recourse since they can't wait years for litigation to run its course.

There's a good documentary on the effects of many of those policies on the NYC garment industry in Schmatta: From Rags to Riches to Rags.

I think that years ago unions were necessary but not in today's America. There are too many people within unions that are overpaid and do little work while just because they have been a member for so long.
 
I would also say that the unions make professional sports worse. Some sports they have too much power in other sports they don't have enough power. It is an absolute mess.

Would you agree that without unions, they wouldn't be making the money they do?


I think that years ago unions were necessary but not in today's America. There are too many people within unions that are overpaid and do little work while just because they have been a member for so long.

I'm not sure where you're seeing this. All I'm seeing is regression. The unions becoming less and less influential, people being paid less while productivity increases, people being forced to work more and more, and most major corporations are turning PROFITS in the middle of a recession while many workers are struggling just to make ends meet.
 
Would you agree that without unions, they wouldn't be making the money they do?




I'm not sure where you're seeing this. All I'm seeing is regression. The unions becoming less and less influential, people being paid less while productivity increases, people being forced to work more and more, and most major corporations are turning PROFITS in the middle of a recession while many workers are struggling just to make ends meet.

I agree that they wouldn't be making the money they do, sure. The biggest example of a union having too much power within pro sports that I can think of is baseball. I think if the union was not there (or at least less powerful) we would have a better on the field product.

I think you are right they are becoming less and less influential and it is started to get to the way it SHOULD be. I don't have a problem people major corporations turning a profit. You must do what you have to be successful and if that is at the expense of other corporations so be it. If people lose their jobs because the company doesn't feel they are valuable enough to them, that sounds like a "you problem". You need to put yourself as a worker to be a valuable person to a company, in that losing you would not even be their realm of thinking....
 
I agree that they wouldn't be making the money they do, sure. The biggest example of a union having too much power within pro sports that I can think of is baseball. I think if the union was not there (or at least less powerful) we would have a better on the field product.

I think you are right they are becoming less and less influential and it is started to get to the way it SHOULD be. I don't have a problem people major corporations turning a profit. You must do what you have to be successful and if that is at the expense of other corporations so be it. If people lose their jobs because the company doesn't feel they are valuable enough to them, that sounds like a "you problem". You need to put yourself as a worker to be a valuable person to a company, in that losing you would not even be their realm of thinking....

How can you possibly be a valuable asset to the company when there are countries where workers are willing/forced out of necessity to do twice the work for a small fraction of the price? U.S. workers are completely defenseless to that.

I don't have a problem with corporations turning a profit either. However, it's quite an indication of who has the power. It's certainly not unions. These companies aren't making any concessions to their employees.
 
How'd you hear about that? I may have to stop drinking it myself...

The Spanish school I went to in Guatemala didn't allow coke products because of it. They had some info there, but I haven't seen anything in a while. This was in the last 90's. A few other US companies did the same thing. Chiquita banana pleaded guilty in the usa to aiding a terrorist organization and paid a huge fine for making payments to the auc. Some more info may come out now that all their former leaders are in jail in the US.
 
The Spanish school I went to in Guatemala didn't allow coke products because of it. They had some info there, but I haven't seen anything in a while. This was in the last 90's. A few other US companies did the same thing. Chiquita banana pleaded guilty in the usa to aiding a terrorist organization and paid a huge fine for making payments to the auc. Some more info may come out now that all their former leaders are in jail in the US.

Interesting. I remember the Chiquita thing.
 
Amby,

One parallel in Schmatta was that there was a huge fire in one of the garment factories in NYC in the early 1900's. They were essentially immigrant sweatshop workers. They were forced to work 14+ hour days with little pay. The fire burned down the building. Meanwhile, the workers were locked in their rooms by their supervisors. They couldn't escape. Hundreds died. It spawned the rise of the unions in that industry which, in turn, created a parity with the labor force. The industry flourished. In 1965, 95% of the clothes worn by Americans were American-made. Today, less than 5% are. All of the jobs are going overseas. Several years ago, there was a fire in a garment factory in (South America?). Same exact situation. 14 year old kids were locked in the building and couldn't escape. It's a repeat of history - at the expense of our jobs and the expense of workers without protections, all so that Walmart (or whoever) can sell a bag of socks for $1 less than their competitor.
 
Not much mainstream coverage of this, and really I don't know what kind of control coca cola has over it's subsidiaries in latin american countries.

http://dbacon.igc.org/PJust/21CokeMurders.htm
Peace & Justice
The Real Thing - Murders at Coke
by David Bacon

SAN FRANCISCO, CA (11/24/01) -- After the leader of their union was shot down at the gate into the plant where they worked, Edgar Paez and his coworkers at the Coca Cola bottling plant in Carepa, Colombia, tried for four years to get the country's courts to bring the people responsible to justice. Instead, some of the workers themselves wound up behind bars, while they watched the real murderers go free.

If Colombian courts and the Colombian government are incapable or unwilling to ensure justice, they reasoned, why not reach outside the country for help? Since Coca Cola is a huge transnational corporation, based in Atlanta, Georgia, why not use the US courts instead? And who better to help a Colombian union challenge a huge US company than a powerful US union?

This was the logic that led the Colombian union, SINALTRAINAL, together with the United Steel Workers of America and the International Labor Rights Fund, to file a case in the Florida courts last July against Coca Cola, Inc., Panamerican Beverages (the largest soft-drink bottler in Latin America, with a 60-year history with Coke), and Bebidas y Alimentos (owned by Richard Kirby of Key Biscayne, Florida), which operates the Carepa plant. The three companies are charged with complicity in the assassination of a Colombian union leader. The case has become the centerpiece in a new strategy developed by that country's unions to stop a wave of murders of union militants that's lasted over a decade. International labor cooperation, the unions believe, is the only effective means to counter the power of transnational corporations, backed by the Colombian and US governments.

The Florida case charges that at 8:30 on the morning of December 5, 1996, a rightwing paramilitary squad of the United Self Defense Forces (AUC) showed up at the gate into the Coke bottling plant. Isidro Segundo Gil, a member of the union's executive board, went to see what they wanted. The paras opened fire on him, and he dropped to the ground, mortally wounded. An hour after he was assassinated, paramilitaries kidnapped another leader of the union at his home, who managed to escape nonetheless, and fled to Bogota. At eight that evening, they broke into the union's offices, destroyed the equipment there, and burned down the whole house containing the union's records.

The next day, the heavily-armed group went inside the bottling plant, called the workers together, and gave them until 4PM to resign from the union. "They said that if they didn't resign, the same thing would happen to them that happened to Gil - they would be killed," recalls Paez, who visited the US in November to ask union members here to support the suit.

Coca Cola spokesperson Rafael Fernandez asserts that the company has a code of conduct requiring respect for human rights. Coke's Colombia spokesperson, Pedro Largacha, disclaims any responsibility: "bottlers in Colombia are completelyindependent of the Coca-Cola Company." The bottler, Bebidas y Alimentos, says it had no way to stop the paramilitaries from doing whatever they wanted -- after all, they had guns. "You don't use them, they use you," Kirby stated. "Nobody tells the paramilitaries what to do."

But the suit charges that plant manager Ariosto Milan Mosquera claimed "he had given an order to the paramilitaries to carry out the task of destroying the union." Workers believed him because he had a history of partying with the paramilitaries.

Baez says not only were the plant's managers responsible for what happened, but that Coke benefited from it. "At the time of Gil's death we were involved in negotiations with the company, presenting proposals to them," he says. "The company never negotiated with the union after that. Twenty seven workers in twelve departments left the plant and the area. All the workers had to quit the union to save their own lives, and the union was completely destroyed. For two months, the paramilitaries camped just outside the plant gate. Coca Cola never complained to the authorities."

The resignation forms, the suit claims, were prepared by the company. The experienced workers who left the plant, who had been earning $380-400 a month, were replaced by new employees at minimum wage -- $130/month.

During a subsequent investigation by the Colombian Justice Ministry, the plant's director and production manger were detained, along with a local paramilitary leader. All three were later released, with no charges against them.

The assassinations were neither the first nor the last among union leaders in Colombian Coke plants. In 1994 two other union activists, Jose David and Luis Granado, were also murdered in Carepa, and at that time as well, paramilitaries demanded workers quit the union. In 1989, Jose Avelino Chicano was killed in the Pasto plant. This year, again during negotiations, a union leader at the Bucaramanga plant, Oscar Dario Soto Polo, was murdered. When the union denounced the killings, the intimidation of workers, and the attacks on their rights. the plant's chief of security, Jose Alejo Aponte, charged its leaders with terrorism and rebellion. Five were arrested and jailed for six months.

At the Barrancabermeja plant a graffiti was scrawled on the walls -- "Get Out Galvis From Coca Cola, Signed AUC." Juan Carlos Galvis is the president of the plant's union. "Many times workers have been kidnapped and by paramilitaries, and told that if they continued their union activities, they also would also be killed," Paez charges. "One of our biggest problems in Colombia is that social protest in general is being criminalized."

According to another Colombian unionist, Samuel Morales of the Unified Confederation of Workers (CUT), the country's largest union federation, "transnational corporations are the ones who actually define many economic, and even political, policies which affect us. In many ways, they are virtually the governments of the states in which they operate. And in our country, it's become a crime to speak out forcefully against them. They get cheap labor by weakening unions and getting rid of long term workers, and they're able to expand their areas of operation.

By October, 125 Colombian trade union leaders had been violently murdered this year alone. Last year's assassinations cost the lives of 129 others. According to Hector Fajardo, CUT general secretary, 3,800 trade unionists have been assassinated in Colombia since 1986. Last year, out of every 5 trade unionists killed in the world, 3 were Colombian, according to a recent report by the United Steel Workers.

Earlier this spring, two leaders of a union at the US-owned Drummond coal mine, Valmore Locarno Rodriguez and Victor Hugo Orcasita, were killed in an incident which eventually drew worldwide condemnation. Media attention, however, didn't prevent the subsequent murder of another leader of the union in the same area, Gustavo Soler, in October.

Paramilitaries are held responsible by unionists for almost all the trade union assassinations. Robin Kirk, who monitors human rights abuses in Colombia for Human Rights Watch, says that there are strong ties between the AUC and the Colombian military. "The Colombian military and intelligence apparatus has been virulently anti-Communist since the 1950s," she says, "and they look at trade unionists as subversives - as a very real and potential threat."

"They believe it's a crime," Morales says, "to try to present any alternative, any option for social change -- just to be an organization that struggle for workers rights and needs."

The AUC is backed by elements of the business and economic elite behind the scenes. "There are powerful economic interests that support the paramilitaries," Kirk says, "and they do target trade unionists, and attack union leaders again and again." Morales agrees: "The paramilitaries don't act by themselves. They are an armed wing of the same military forces and government structures that have historically taken positions against us. In Colombia, they're called the army's 'sixth division.'"

Despite the wave of death and violence, U.S. aid to the Colombian armed forces has grown rapidly. Under Plan Colombia, the U.S. has funneled over $1 billion into the country, almost entirely in military assistance. Colombia is the third-largest recipient of U.S. military aid in the world. "Plan Colombia has bloodied the hands of this Congress," charges New York Democrat Joseph Crowley.

Paez charges that the drug war, which Plan Columbia supposedly funds, is a pretext for protecting transnational investors. "Plan Colombia's objective is the elimination of movements for social change in our country," he says. "That creates a much more favorable environment for the exploitation of our natural resources and our labor force. It also provides support for the implementation of the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas."

President Bush has promised to bring his proposal for fast track trade negotiations, a necessary step towards FTAA, to a vote in Congress in December.

This spring, the United Steel Workers sent a formal delegation to Colombia in the wake of the murders of Locarno Rodriguez and Orcasita. Led by attorney Dan Kovalik and Rapid Response Coordinator Glynda Williams, the delegation met with leaders of the CUT. After their return, the two unions filed the case against Coca Cola.

One stated objective of the case is to build pressure on the Colombian and US governments to comply with rights guaranteed unions and workers under the conventions of the International Labor Organization, and the Geneva Accords on Human Rights. But Colombian unions would also like to see those responsible for the murders brought to justice.

"We want to strip off the mask hiding the involvement of transnational corporations in our internal conflict," Paez explains. "To do this, we need a judicial forum outside the country, since within Colombia those guilty of these crimes are treated with impunity. In this particular case, those responsible include Coca Cola. But they're not the only company pursuing policies which violate human rights. By strengthening our ties with the Steel Workers and the AFL-CIO, we're giving our own global answer to the globalization of the corporations."
 
COCA-COLA: OFF THE HOOK FOR COLOMBIA TERROR

Federal Courts Dismiss Workers' Case

by Paul Wolf, World War 4 Report

On August 11, 2009, the Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit in Atlanta affirmed the dismissal of a case against the Coca-Cola Company and its Colombian subsidiaries, brought by a Colombian labor union and several of the union's leaders. The plaintiffs alleged that Coca Cola and its local bottlers collaborated with the Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia (AUC), a right-wing terror organization, to torture and murder the unionists, in violation of international law. The lawsuit was brought suit under the Alien Tort Claims (ATS) and Torture Victim Protection (TVPA) Acts.

The case is noteworthy, not only because Coke has been the target of boycotts and protests in relation to its labor practices, but also because the decision itself helps clarify a particularly muddy and controversial area of law. In recent years, liberal activists have sought to hold US corporations liable in US courts for their actions overseas, which either constitute war crimes, or some other conduct universally prohibited under international law.

While the outcome may be disappointing, once the details are understood, it is hardly surprising, and should not be seen as a setback for advocates of corporate responsibility. The Coke case was really a stretch. The plaintiffs did not allege that Coca-Cola USA was directly responsible for any of the murders. Instead, liability was premised on a complex chain of relationships. In the words of the Court:

Plaintiffs attempt to connect the Coca-Cola Defendants to the local facilities’ management through a series of agency and alter ego relationships. For example, in the [Isidro Segundo] Gil case, the plaintiffs' layered theory of agency and alter ego liability is as follows: the bottling facility, Bebidas [y Alimentos, in Carepa, Antioquia], is responsible for the acts of its employees, including conspiring with local paramilitaries to rid the facility of unions. Bebidas, in turn, is an alter ego or agent of Richard Kirby, Bebidas' owner and manager, such that Kirby is liable for any wrongful conduct by Bebidas employees that resulted in the murder of Gil. Bebidas and Kirby, in turn, are the alter egos or agents of Coca-Cola Colombia because Coca-Cola Colombia is responsible for manufacturing and distributing Coca-Cola products to Bebidas and all other bottlers in Colombia. Coca-Cola Colombia, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Coca-Cola USA, in turn, is an alter ego or agent of Coca-Cola USA because Coca-Cola Colombia is under the management, control, and direction of Coca-Cola USA to the extent that its separateness is illusory.

With such a convoluted and indirect theory of liability, it's perhaps unsurprising that the court dismissed the claims against Coca-Cola USA. The court found that the parent company did not have the requisite control over its Colombian counterparts to be held liable for theirs acts. Then, in a subsequent decision, the court found the allegations of conspiracy between the bottlers and the AUC to be insufficient, and dismissed the case entirely.

The plaintiffs appealed, and the Court of Appeals affirmed the dismissal of the ATS and TVPA claims. First, it considered whether the Colombian paramilitaries (AUC) could be considered agents of the Colombian state. State action is required for torture (TVPA) claims, and for ATS claims that are not closely related to a war (i.e., are not "war crimes"). The court found the plaintiffs contention that the "regular military and the civil government authorities in Colombia tolerate the paramilitaries, allow them to operate, and often cooperate, protect and/or work in concert with them" insufficient to transform the paramilitaries into "state actors." Relying on the Supreme Court's recent decisions in the Twombly and Iqbal cases, which have raised the bar to sue in federal court, the Court of Appeals rejected the allegations as being without factual support and lacking in detail. This is unfortunate, since the relationship between the Colombian government and the AUC is now the subject of numerous legal proceedings in Colombia. In the last two years, dozens of legislators and military officers have been prosecuted for supporting the AUC. In fact, one of Coke's bottlers is located almost directly across the street from the Colombian army's notorious 17th Brigade headquarters in Carepa. General Rito del Rio Alejo, who commanded this brigade at the height of the AUC's reign of terror, is currently in the brig awaiting his trial. But because of the particular way the relationship between the government and AUC was described in the Coke case, the TVPA and non-war-crime ATS claims were dismissed for lack of state action.

The court then evaluated the plaintiffs' alternative theory that the murders did constitute war crimes. War crimes, unlike other violations of international law, can be committed by state actors and non-state actors alike. The court rejected the plaintiff's war crimes claims for other reasons, though. According to the court, the plaintiffs had argued that it was sufficient for the purposes of ATS jurisdiction that the crime merely occur during an armed civil conflict. "In this case there is no suggestion the plaintiffs' murder and torture was perpetrated because of the ongoing civil war or in the course of civil war clashes," wrote Judge Black in the decision. "The civil war provided the background for the unfortunate events that unfolded, but the civil war did not precipitate the violence that befell the plaintiffs." In other words, the court considered the company's alleged murder of its unionists to have been a crime committed for its own personal reasons, rather than as part of a war. This is also unfortunate, because although Coke may have had its own reasons to commit the murders (if Coke did in fact order them), the murders do fit into a widespread pattern in Colombia. In Colombia, guerrillas and their rivals battle for union influence and control, and the murder of union leaders is no different from the murder of city councilmen and business leaders, who are all prime targets for assassination in Colombia's dirty war.

Finally, the plaintiffs' conspiracy claims were dismissed for vagueness and lack of factual support. "The scope of the conspiracy and its participants are undefined," the court held, and "plaintiffs' attenuated chain of conspiracy fails to nudge their claims across the line from conceivable to plausible." This again was in reference to the Iqbal and Twombly decisions, and is more indicative of an overall trend in conservativism in the Supreme Court, rather than hostility towards international cases.

The Coca-Cola case, then, stands as a benchmark for the factual basis needed to sue a corporation for war crimes or other violations of international law committed abroad. It is not enough that the corporation takes advantage of a lawless situation to murder its enemies, nor is it enough to say, without proof, that the foreign government tolerates or encourages the lawlessness. Moreover, Coke was a tough case from the start. The long and complex chain of liability proposed by the Coke plaintiffs would be hard to prove even if the case was a domestic one. Taken with the heightened pleading standard articulated in Twombly and Iqbal, a plaintiff really needs to have all his ducks in a row before trying to bring a case like this into court.

The death of the "Killer Coke" case may come as a disappointment to those concerned about corporate responsibility, or about the astronomically high murder rate of trade unionists in Colombia. However, this case was dismissed because of its own idiosyncrasies, with a good measure of bad luck thrown in. Had the Coke plaintiffs been able to predict the Supreme Court's heightened pleading standard, and had the plaintiffs been a little more aggressive in alleging that the murders were part of a broad counterinsurgency campaign to rid Colombian labor unions of guerrilla influence, Coke might very well be preparing for a gruesome trial. Not to mention the fact that anyone involved in these kinds of incidents could potentially face criminal charges, particularly in Colombia, where the extradition of drug traffickers to the US is such a politically charged issue. The lesson, then, is the same. Corporations doing business in war zones are not entitled to play by the local rules.
 
Amby,

One parallel in Schmatta was that there was a huge fire in one of the garment factories in NYC in the early 1900's. They were essentially immigrant sweatshop workers. They were forced to work 14+ hour days with little pay. The fire burned down the building. Meanwhile, the workers were locked in their rooms by their supervisors. They couldn't escape. Hundreds died. It spawned the rise of the unions in that industry which, in turn, created a parity with the labor force. The industry flourished. In 1965, 95% of the clothes worn by Americans were American-made. Today, less than 5% are. All of the jobs are going overseas. Several years ago, there was a fire in a garment factory in (South America?). Same exact situation. 14 year old kids were locked in the building and couldn't escape. It's a repeat of history - at the expense of our jobs and the expense of workers without protections, all so that Walmart (or whoever) can sell a bag of socks for $1 less than their competitor.

The problem is that this isn't either of those times. It is 2010. Things change, evolve and I don't think that is a bad thing. We in America have laws that prevent stuff like that happening again...and the fact that it happened in South America recently sounds like a problem for that country not for us. I know what you are going to say...it is a problem if American companies are going to have factories there and fund those places but I see it as something that needs to be handled there...not here.
 
The problem is that this isn't either of those times. It is 2010. Things change, evolve and I don't think that is a bad thing. We in America have laws that prevent stuff like that happening again...and the fact that it happened in South America recently sounds like a problem for that country not for us. I know what you are going to say...it is a problem if American companies are going to have factories there and fund those places but I see it as something that needs to be handled there...not here.

I'm not only talking about the ethics of it all, I'm talking about the destruction of an entire American industry. It's not the only one. This is not something that is good for the American economy. Sure, prices might be marginally lower. However, when people don't have jobs that allow them any purchasing power, what good does saving a few cents on a pair of jeans do?
 
Would you agree that without unions, they wouldn't be making the money they do?




I'm not sure where you're seeing this. All I'm seeing is regression. The unions becoming less and less influential, people being paid less while productivity increases, people being forced to work more and more, and most major corporations are turning PROFITS in the middle of a recession while many workers are struggling just to make ends meet.
yes

How can you possibly be a valuable asset to the company when there are countries where workers are willing/forced out of necessity to do twice the work for a small fraction of the price? U.S. workers are completely defenseless to that.


I don't have a problem with corporations turning a profit either. However, it's quite an indication of who has the power. It's certainly not unions. These companies aren't making any concessions to their employees.

and yes, Monkey you're showing way too much restraint here. I hope Bread's outburst didn't cramp your style.